SW: Tell us about your film, STOLEN.

RD: STOLEN is an in-depth exploration of the world’s largest unsolved art heist. It took place at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum in Boston in 1990.

SW: So, you could make a documentary about anything. Why did you make STOLEN?

RD: I went to the Gardner Museum when I was quite young and it made a big impression on me. The museum feels very personal and you definitely have the sense that one person created it. Also, on that first visit I saw “The Concert,” and though I didn’t even know who Vermeer was, the painting had a very profound effect on me. It was one of those moments you always remember. So, of course, when the theft happened I was very upset. And the years passed and the mystery remained, so I started to think about doing a film. It’s truly amazing because you have such an odd array of characters all in the same story, you know like a 17th century Dutch Master, a 19th century Grande Dame and, incongruously, modern day mobsters. There was something very outrageous about this to me.

Rebecca Dreyfus, Director of the film STOLEN. Photo courtesy Rebecca Dreyfus.

SW: You do have an extraordinary cast of characters, in particular, Harold Smith. Can you tell us about him?

RD:Harold Smith, the main character in STOLEN, spent his life recovering fine art for Lloyds of London, Chubb and other insurance companies. He was one of a small circle of independent adjusters who also acted as investigators. When he got an idea in his head – for example, recovering the stolen Gardner Museum art – Harold was indefatigable. He worked on this case until the week before he died. He was also one of the kindest and most spirited people I have ever met.

SW: Do you see a connection between Harold Smith and Mrs. Gardner?

RD: I do, and if you see STOLEN, that’s very clear. Harold’s passion for making a recovery was matched only by Isabella’s passion for growing her collection.

SW: So, it’s been 16 years. Why can’t they catch these guys?

RD: Well, “these guys” is a relative term. As you say, it’s been 16 years, and the people who stole the paintings are probably not the same people who have them now. They may have changed hands many times. And if the theory presented in my film is correct, we’re not talking about an arrest. The best hope is to come up with a special arrangement so that the people who have them can give them back.

SW: Let’s talk about collections. The Gardner is, indeed, very idiosyncratic. In some ways STOLEN, is about a collector. What do you think about collectors’ relationships to their collections?

RD: Certainly Isabella Stewart Gardner was extraordinarily passionate about collecting. Collecting was everything to her, and I do think you can tell a lot about people from their collections. For example, I’ve heard some people say that they don’t care for the Gardner Museum because of Mrs. Gardner’s installation, which seems to be based on form, color, juxtaposition and, perhaps, whim, instead of region and chronology. But even that is sort of telling, the feeling that things are a little misplaced, because when she arrive in Boston Isabella Stewart Gardner felt a little misplaced, like an outsider.

Isabella Stewart Gardner as a young woman. Photo courtesy, Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum, Boston.

SW: In what way was she an outsider?

RD: Well, she had snapped up Boston’s most eligible bachelor, and here she was, a New Yorker, not a great beauty, and with a very forceful personality that today we would admire but was probably offensive to Bostonian women in the 1800s. They did not treat her nicely. Then she tragically lost her only son. One can only imagine how isolated she must have felt after that. And you feel it in the museum, that sense of unrest.

SW: But wasn’t being invited to one of her parties a very desirable thing.

RD: That was later in her life, after she became a real trend-setter. She’s been called the Jacqueline Kennedy of her time because her persona became larger than life. She was an avid traveler – one of the first Americans to go into the jungle in Cambodia and visit the temples in Angkor. All of these things made her kind of a celebrity and she was known for her famous friends.

SW: Of all the works taken, the film focuses on “The Concert,” because Vermeers are so rare and valuable. What would a Vermeer go for?

RD: People have speculated that a known Vermeer would fetch 300 million dollars, but nobody really knows until it goes up at auction. A Vermeer authenticated last year didn’t fetch those kinds of prices, but it had been disputed for many years so it’s hard to use it as a benchmark. And established Vermeer paintings are all in museums. They’ll probably never be sold, so it’s hypothetical to speculate.

SW: When Isabella Stewart Gardner and Bernard Berenson acquired “The Concert” it was about 250 or 300 years old?

RD: Yes, approximately.

SW: So, they were lucky, or they knew exactly what they were doing?

RD: Well first I should say that although Berenson was Isabella’s trusted advisor and a famous art connoisseur, it was Isabella who bought “The Concert” on a trip to Paris. And yes, she was lucky –Vermeer was largely forgotten for most of the 19th century. It was at the end of the 19th century that the French scholar and art critic Thoré-Berger kind of rediscovered Vermeer. But at the time Vermeer’s name was certainly not well known. Isabella just bought that painting because she loved it.

SW: Well, that’s not really luck.

RD: No, of course, it’s all about taste. It was her taste.

SW: So you believe Isabella Gardner collected things she loved? Or things she believed other people would enjoy seeing? Or things she thought would become good investments?

RD: Well, in terms of prices, what’s happened in the art world in the last 20 years no one could have dreamed of in 1900. So, while she and Berenson may have been thinking about value and investment, I think for the most part they were buying what they loved.

SW: Do you think that was pretty much true of collectors in that era?

RD: I’ve heard people say that Frick was buying more as investment than for love, but I don’t know for sure. And at the time only a handful of collectors existed in America.

SW: You’ve stated in STOLEN that some people consider Isabella Stewart Gardner to be the first great American art collector.

RD: She was one of a small group of Americans who were serious collectors at that time, and she was certainly collecting out of passion.

SW: Do you think she has had a lot of influence on art in America?

RD: She was a pioneer – as a collector, most certainly as a woman collector, and also the idea of turning one’s collection into a museum was very innovative. In 1900 the concept of museums was still new. The great American museums we know today were in their infancy, or not even thought of yet, so I do think, yes, Isabella was influential. America was still a very young country and she helped shape notions about art and culture.

SW: In your film you are flirting with the idea that sometimes private collectors use questionable acquisition methods. Today, even the acquisitions of some museums are being called into question. What do you think about all this?

RD: I think it’s incredibly complicated, and of course this subject is very much in the media right now because of what’s happening with the MET and the return of certain Italian objects. It’s a question I try to explore in the film; who gets to have art? Who does art belong to? I don’t think there is an easy answer. Human beings are driven to find meaning for themselves, and art is about meaning. So the art carries with it huge importance, and it’s really not about the money. I’ve found through making STOLEN that people are really fascinated with the subject of art theft. And I think it’s because the majority of the time, particularly in cases involving high profile art, it’s not about the money. So, if you’re not stealing it for the money, what are you stealing it for? It’s about something else. And when you transcend issue of money and monetary value that’s when things get really interesting.

SW: So the big question: you think these paintings are still out there?

RD: I do. Their condition is always a concern, but given the value, at least of the Vermeer, I think they are probably ok.

SW: Well, I think on that note we’ll invite people to come see your film STOLEN which opens April 21st at the Cinema Village at 22 East 12th St. in New York City and select theaters across the country (www.stolenthefilm.com for listings). Thanks so much for talking to us today.

RD: My pleasure.

“Poster for the film STOLEN showing Harold Smith and Vermeer’s The Concert.” Photo courtesy, Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum, Boston.